MMA - help me understand

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MMA - help me understand

Postby SpugFab » Tue Jul 22, 2008 8:41 am

I watched with eager anticipation the Fedor - Sylvia fight at the weekend. It was a bit disappointing but of course quick finishes are part of any combat sport.

It got me thinking though. What are the great moments which make you love the sport? What has got you on the edge of your seat, emotionally drained, in awe of the spirit of the fighters as the momentum swings back and forth?

If I look at one of the most exciting fighters in the UFC - Rampage. His huge title fight against Chuck involved a minute or so of sparring then a quick ko. His unification bout against Dan Henderson went to a decision in a close fight with few defining moments. Similar with his loss against Forrest. Interesting enough fights but in no way edge of your seat drama.

I'm a MMA fan, I love seeing how different fighters deal with the problems facing them. How styles match up. I enjoy it enough to attend MMA classes and learn more. But in all honesty I have to say the events themselves don't provide great sporting drama. Certainly not in the same league as boxing.

Help me see the error of my ways :) What are the great moments involving great fighters which I'm missing?
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Postby JP » Tue Jul 22, 2008 9:06 am

While I have loads of respect for boxing and enjoy watching it from time to time, for me personally, because of the styles of MA I am into, i rather watch total amateur MMA fight than top level boxing.

My point is, your question is wrongly set up, and its as meaningful as arguing about favourite colour.

I recognise all the criticism of MMA, like lack of depth if talent on top level, corporate interests running and dictating fights and so on.
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Postby SpugFab » Tue Jul 22, 2008 9:20 am

[quote="JP"]My point is, your question is wrongly set up, and its as meaningful as arguing about favourite colour.

[quote="spug_myers"]What are the great moments involving great fighters which I'm missing?

Maybe English isn't your first language :? I'm asking for your great moments so I can judge for myself.

You can be a fan of a sport while being aware that the sporting drama that it serves up isn't the greatest. Rowing is a fine example of this for me. I find it interesting but objectively it doesn't have the drama that other sports can provide.

I'm sure strongman and weightlifting are similar for you.
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Postby SpugFab » Tue Jul 22, 2008 10:04 am

Come to think of it this thread is asking for similar to the "MMA/NHB favourite fighter/favourite fight" thread, but considering NO-ONE HAS MANAGED TO PICK OUT A FAVOURITE FIGHT in that thread I think it's worth asking again.

Come on guys, this is clearly the most popular sport martial art on the forum. It generates LOTS of chat. It must be STACKED with great drama, no?

You can certainly beat this kind of non-excitement from the dying sport of boxing:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2p3bFrP8-HM
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Postby puppydog » Tue Jul 22, 2008 11:37 am

favourite fights favourite moments - while some people think it's boring, i'm a huge fan of the guys in the lightweight division that have amazing conditioning, a well rounded game, and can go 100% for 3 full rounds.

what's amazing is something like Guida vs. Huerta - if you can see that fight I think you'd agree MMA can provide huge drama and entertainment.

at any moment somebody who has been pummeled can throw a submission, land a flying head kick, etc.

the outcome of fights seems to be less obvious - when was the last time you saw a huge upset in boxing?

Also, two guys rolling on the mat in tight pants, sometimes one of them gets his hand on the other guy's butt. I love that part.
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Postby ninearms » Tue Jul 22, 2008 11:49 am

I don't get the popularity at all. Well I do...every internet warrior under the sun apparently trains in it, so you've got a large audience of people who have a vested interest in deluding themselves that it's remotely interesting, when in reality the top-flight stuff is just the WWE with all the interesting moves replaced by running backwards and prolonged cuddling. :?

I wonder whether the lack of spectacle is a consequence of the relatively broad range of actions available to the fighter (compared to boxing), such that almost anything you do leaves you open to getting twatted because your opponent has a much greater toolkit at his disposal than would be available if it were a boxing match. I'm no expert on either, but it would appear to me that the restricted armoury available to the boxer forces him to take more risks in order to get a punch in, whereas in MMA you can end up with one guy who spends the entire fight avoiding getting punched just so he can take it to the floor, while the other guy spends the entire fight trying to avoid it going to the floor by throwing punches at a guy who's running away from him because he wants to take it to the floor. It's the nature of the beast, where you have a broad range of skill sets and thus a broad range of specialisms, that you'll end up with guys trying to direct the fight into the area in which they perform best, and away from the area in which their opponent performs best, which may or may not be the same.

I am pretty much just making this up off the top of my head though. :D
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Postby JP » Tue Jul 22, 2008 12:00 pm

missing the point spugster. I am not watching it for a short moment of spectacle, some big slam, or a punch. I rather like following the build up, the measuring and locating the weaknesses, the slow build ups of submissions, take down defence techniques and so on.

This is why i would rather watch a local gyms MMA fight than top level stadium filled boxing fight.
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Postby SpugFab » Tue Jul 22, 2008 12:45 pm

[quote="omar tan"]what's amazing is something like Guida vs. Huerta - if you can see that fight I think you'd agree MMA can provide huge drama and entertainment.

I'll agree that was a good fight. I've seen Guida live (against Tyson Griffin) and that was also good entertainment. I'll maybe watch the fight back again but I don't remember being right on the edge of my seat (more edge-ish).

Neither fighter was really at the top level either - Guida is a fringe contender, Huerta was on the way up. Exactly the same could be said for another "great" MMA bout and FOTY - Forrest vs Bonnar. Where are the great fights between great fighters?

As for huge upsets - Bradley beating Junior Witter for his title in Witter's back yard a couple of months ago is up there for me. Not a "lucky" punch, a 12 round outboxing of a much more fancied rival. I'll concede the point in general though - the small gloves, quick finishes and inexperience of many of the top fighters does make it more unpredicatable.
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Postby SpugFab » Tue Jul 22, 2008 12:50 pm

[quote="JP"]missing the point spugster. I am not watching it for a short moment of spectacle, some big slam, or a punch. I rather like following the build up, the measuring and locating the weaknesses, the slow build ups of submissions, take down defence techniques and so on.

I'm not asking specifically for short moments - witness the round of boxing I linked to. It's part of an epic fight - nay trilogy.

It is the build up that is often missing. The prolonged exchanges. I'm looking for the times when the fighters have to dig deep, to find resources, that times that leave you speechless. Not the single punch turnaround followed by hammerfist stoppage.

If you disagree, just point out the fights that had these measured build ups, the locating of the weaknesses - plus THE EXCITEMENT. Name the names.

My motivation here isn't so much to run down MMA, which is a sport I enjoy, but to big up boxing. I think the MMA fanboys like yourself should be finding many more of the things they enjoy in boxing. It's quite simply the superior spectator sport. To me it's a shame that you are missing out.
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Postby tempehmomma » Tue Jul 22, 2008 1:30 pm

One of the reasons why MMA is popular is because if the top pro boxer fought the top pro MMA fighter in ANY weight division the boxer would get destroyed.

MMA fighters are complete well rounded fighters. Boxers are one-dimentional fighters. An MMA fighter could fuck you up in 20 different ways.
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Postby SpugFab » Tue Jul 22, 2008 1:38 pm

[quote="tempehmomma"]One of the reasons why MMA is popular is because if the top pro boxer fought the top pro MMA fighter in ANY weight division the boxer would get destroyed.

MMA fighters are complete well rounded fighters. Boxers are one-dimentional fighters. An MMA fighter could fuck you up in 20 different ways.

:roll: :roll:

To be honest a cricketer beats them both.
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Postby ninearms » Tue Jul 22, 2008 1:47 pm

That argument doesn't make sense. It's like saying American Football is popular because the best American Football player would beat the best rugby union player in a game of American Football.

Why isn't kendo popular? The top kendo guy could totally destroy the top MMA guy.
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Postby SpugFab » Tue Jul 22, 2008 2:34 pm

[quote="tempehmomma"]One of the reasons why MMA is popular is because if the top pro boxer fought the top pro MMA fighter in ANY weight division the boxer would get destroyed.

Thinking about this and I reckon tempeh has a point. This is one of the reasons why MMA is popular. It's a stupid reason, but internet fanboys are not reknowned for good reasoning.

Fortunately we are sensible grown up types who are not about to let this thread descend into a pissing contest about which sportsman is tougher. Let's stick to the fights.

The first UFC was in 1993 - in those days Benn fought McClellan, Holyfield had his trilogy with Bowe (then went on to fight Tyson). We've had virtually Arturo Gatti's whole career (including fights with Rodriguez, Ruelas, Robinson, Ward). I'm looking for fights which rival those for excitement, skill, swings, heart, desire. I'm not finding them.
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Postby ninearms » Tue Jul 22, 2008 2:53 pm

You mean fights on a par with this?

http://youtube.com/watch?v=AmPx2ixbhlA
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Postby SpugFab » Tue Jul 22, 2008 3:04 pm

[quote="ninearms"]You mean fights on a par with this?

http://youtube.com/watch?v=AmPx2ixbhlA

Man that's a great fight. Your clip doesn't have the moment at the end of round 8 where Mike finds a beautiful uppercut to floor Douglas heavily. Douglas manages to get up and continue with his gameplan (using his jab to keep Tyson on the outside).

That also counts as a fair upset - Douglas was a 42-1 outsider.... Douglas had been a bit of an underachiever and was considered just a warmup. His mum died shortly before the bout and he used that as inspiration to get into better shape than before.

There's a strange atmosphere at the fight though. Tyson had gone on the road and that was in Tokyo in front of an almost silent crowd.

WHAT A FINISH Douglas finds too - amazing combination :) To find that in the 10th round of a gruelling fight is excellent conditioning for a big man.

So yeah - fights on a par with that would be nice...
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