MMA question

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MMA question

Postby Rochellita » Fri Jul 11, 2008 8:11 pm

I'm thinking of starting MMA, but I've noticed my local MMA gym- Straight Blast gym seems to have one 'Ladies Class' and then a generic MMA timetable.

This may seem like a really silly question, but I'm curious to know if any of you practicing MMA fight other fighters of your own gender only, or if you fight anyone as long as they are in the same weight class and have a similar level of experience?

For me it's a toss-up between starting Muay Thai or MMA, and I'm leaning towards MMA because Straight Blast has such a good reputation. I don't really have a strong preference.
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Postby XkillerX » Fri Jul 11, 2008 9:49 pm

MMA FTW :!: 8)

unfortunately i keep fighting the same person for the last year or so, but given the circumstances i'd fight anybody regardless of age, weight or gender. how about you?

i dont know if this is of any interest to you, but mma is quite a gladiator routine. if your goal is fun, fun, fun and grounding and pounding, it is #1.

for self defense boxing and thai boxing are more practical.
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Postby tempehmomma » Fri Jul 11, 2008 10:52 pm

flux, have you spoken to any of the instructors at Straight Blast gym. Your post sounds like you just read a class schedule. If you haven't spoken to the instructors stop by the gym or give them a call.

.flux wrote:I don't really have a strong preference.
I wish more women trained in MMA. :)
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Postby sonnyd7 » Fri Jul 11, 2008 11:17 pm

practicing jiu jitsu and wrestling is fun with the girls :lol:

all joking aside, i'm bigger than most females are (at least at my gym), and to prepare for the worst i often like sparring against people 1-2 weight classes higher than me. even if i catch a beating, it makes me better and learn faster, so i prefer to train with other guys
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Postby Rochellita » Sat Jul 12, 2008 9:46 am

XkillerX wrote: how about you?
i dont know if this is of any interest to you, but mma is quite a gladiator routine. if your goal is fun, fun, fun and grounding and pounding, it is #1.

for self defense boxing and thai boxing are more practical.


I really don't mind who I fight, my guess is if I ever need to apply any training to a real life situation it's probably not a woman of equal weight, height and experience. Having said that, as a beginner I don't really want have to have to start by fighting with a 1.85m man weighing 115 kg (using JP as an example)

I do a bit of Muay Thai already at my gym and have really enjoyed it. The instructors are proper MT fighters, but there are limitations to teaching pure MT in a gym environment, so classes are modified. There is no gender separated sparring in these classes, but I found that when paired with men, they seem a bit scared to hit me and that's quite unsatisfying

tempehmomma- my next course of action is to walk in and chat with them, this is just a bit of research in advance :)
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Postby spike » Sat Jul 12, 2008 11:18 am

Don't know how useful this is cos it's to do with taekwondo sparring which is pretty different. But just to give my views and experience of sparring different ppl.
We have a class dedicated to sparring once a week which is usually mostly attended by black belts. I'm a colour belt (blue, which is around the middle of the colour belt hierarchy) and am sometimes the lowest grade there. Basically I am one of the worst there (which is why i go - to improve!)
When I spar black belt men they spar differently to how they'd spar balck belts, giving me chances etc. Sparring someone of a similar grade and ability we both put everythiing into it (usually). if I'm sparring someone much less experienced I will go a bit easy on them. There is no point just battering them.
I guess my point is that from my POV ppl spar differently dependign on their opponent and I think that's ok - I get to practice different skills depending on whetherI'm sparring someone better, less experienced or similar ability.
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Postby Crash » Sat Jul 12, 2008 9:46 pm

.flux the Ladies Class may be self defense (they usually are in the places I've gone to) and might give you a taste of jiu jitsu/judo, etc.

The jiu jitsu classes I've gone to are usually only distinguished by belt level, not gender or weight. Fighters are paired with whoever wants to fight (male or female), which I love because this really lets you refine your technique and has the added benefit of not getting used to how one person fights but how people fight. 8) Also, since most fights end up on the floor, jiu jitsu is the best for self defense imo.

My recommendation would be to take the Ladies Class first - if it's self defense - which will probably show take downs and how to get away from attackers, etc. and see how you like it before moving on to the floor fighting. :) If it's just MMA for women, I would take the generic MMA, as imho it's more beneficial to learn how to fight both sexes.
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Postby tempehmomma » Sat Jul 12, 2008 10:35 pm

Crash wrote:Also, since most fights end up on the floor, jiu jitsu is the best for self defense imo.
That's an inaccurate statement used by BJJ instructors to sell their product/big business.

If you get knock to the ground in a street fight the first thing you should do is get off of the ground unless you want to get kicked in the head by the other persons friends or risk being pinned on the ground buy a bigger person.

Crash, show me research that proves most streetfights end up on the ground.

Fighting Myths-Aug 05, 2004
http://www.veganfitness.net/forum/viewt ... 12&start=0
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Postby Crash » Sat Jul 12, 2008 10:55 pm

tempehmomma wrote:
Crash wrote:Also, since most fights end up on the floor, jiu jitsu is the best for self defense imo.
That's an inaccurate statement used by BJJ instructors to sell their product/big business.

If you get knock to the ground in a street fight the first thing you should do is get off of the ground unless you want to get kicked in the head by the other persons friends or risk being pinned on the ground buy a bigger person.

Crash, show me research that proves most streetfights end up on the ground.

Well of course you get up off the ground :roll: - if you are given the opportunity. But if not, your best bet is to protect yourself while still on the ground and wait until there is an opening for you to get up.

Here's your research.
6. The report concluded: “Nearly two thirds of the 1988 altercations (62%) ended with the officer and subject on the ground with the officer applying a joint lock and handcuffing the subject.” Given this, it is better put that the LAPD data says when officers physically fought with suspects (versus simply encountering minor resistance or non-compliance which required a minor use of force, but did not escalate into an altercation), 95% of the time those fights took one of five patterns, and 62% of those five types of altercations ended up with the officer and subject on the ground with the officer locking and handcuffing the suspect.

After this report was published, LAPD instituted a program that included training in ground control skills, which in turn were based on modern judo and jujutsu grappling skills specially adapted for law enforcement.
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Postby tempehmomma » Sun Jul 13, 2008 12:35 am

I think learning ground fighting/self-defense is useful for both men and women especially women.

Thanks for posting that link. It is an interesting article, however I'm referring to "civilian street fights." When you used the word "fights" it was misleading. I don't get into "fights" with police officers. Aggravated Assault on a police officer is a 1st degree felony in Pennsylvania which carries a maximum sentence of more than 10 years in imprisonment. Pa.C.S. 18 section 2701(a)(1), 18 section 106(b)(2).

Also, the statistics did not measure "fights" but officer use of force reports.

Additional information regarding civilian fights.

Male versus Male - Age 18 and up

In studying real life fights involving this group of civilians, we find that no more than 40% fights ever went to the ground.

The percentage is much higher with male versus female. Typically 80% or more. This is due to the nature of the attack. Men attack women for the purpose of control and exploitation, such as rape.


http://www.edatkd.com/fighting_myths.htm
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Postby Crash » Sun Jul 13, 2008 1:24 am

tempehmomma wrote:It is an interesting article, however I'm referring to "civilian street fights." When you used the word "fights" it was misleading. I don't get into "fights" with police officers.

Glad to hear you don't assault police officers, neither do I and don't advocate it either. But I did mean all fights. The criminals these police officers fought with are also civilians. These criminal civilians will also fight with other civilians - not only police officers, ergo these fights will go to the ground as well.

You failed to include in your quote from this website that
In studying real life fights involving this group of civilians, we find that no more than 40% fights ever went to the ground. When the fights did go to the ground, it was typically due to two main reasons:

1. Ineffective technique that led to the combatants becoming fatigued and frustrated and proceeding to a grapple, and then to falling on the ground.

2. One of the combatants actually tripping and falling.

Also you didn't note that this information comes from a self defense school that teaches taekwondo and as such the information is clearly suspect and misleading as it is biased against another martial art.

Regardless, the 40% in the taekwondo school's opinion is still a big percentage and while not the 62% of the general MMA website's is still a good reason to study jiu jitsu or good luck that any fights that may happen don't end up on the ground. Personally I'd rather be prepared than take the chance that a fight will be in the percentage that might not end up on the ground.

Per my personal experience I have been unlucky enough to witness a beating of one man by a group of thugs - the lone guy put up a fight and it ended up on the ground - they had to be pulled apart by police officers. I stand by my recommendation.
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Postby tempehmomma » Sun Jul 13, 2008 3:42 am

Crash wrote:But I did mean all fights. The criminals these police officers fought with are also civilians. These criminal civilians will also fight with other civilians - not only police officers, ergo these fights will go to the ground as well.
You only cite statistics from use of force by law enforcement officers not civilian versus civilian "fights." Do you know what percentage of ALL "fights" in the US are civilian versus civilian or police officer versus civilian. The Bureau of Justice Statistics website probably has those statistics, however it's impossible to get an accurate number because many civilian versus civilian "fights" are not reported to law enforcement. http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/
Crash wrote:Also you didn't note that this information comes from a self defense school that teaches taekwondo and as such the information is clearly suspect and misleading as it is biased against another martial art.

Regardless, the 40% in the taekwondo school's opinion....
The opinion comes from the American Society of Law Enforcement Trainers not a TKD school. Information from BJJ practioners is suspect, misleading, and biased against other martial arts so I don't think that is a very good argument.
Crash wrote:Per my personal experience I have been unlucky enough to witness a beating of one man by a group of thugs - the lone guy put up a fight and it ended up on the ground - they had to be pulled apart by police officers. I stand by my recommendation.
I don't understand why you shared that experience. Do most civilian "fights" involve multiple attackers? Your personal experience is not enough data to come to a scientific conclusion that most civilian street "fights" involve multiple attackers or end up on the ground.

The best martial art against multiple attackers is running.
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Postby Crash » Sun Jul 13, 2008 2:01 pm

This has really disintegrated from .flux’s original question, so .flux I apologize. :oops:
tempehmomma wrote: You only cite statistics from use of force by law enforcement officers not civilian versus civilian "fights." Do you know what percentage of ALL "fights" in the US are civilian versus civilian or police officer versus civilian. The Bureau of Justice Statistics website probably has those statistics, however it's impossible to get an accurate number because many civilian versus civilian "fights" are not reported to law enforcement. http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/

You haven't cited any statistics, just the link to a website. However, if we use your taekwondo school’s stats of fights going to the ground, because of pushing, tripping someone, etc. Per the percentages only stats from middle to hs violence
Exhibit 1: Type and Frequency of Violence in Incidents Among Selected
Public School Students
Number of Incidents* Percentage of All
Threw something 14%
Pushed, grabbed, shoved 55%
Slapped 17%
Kicked/bit/hit with fist 67%
Hit with something 14%
Beat up 21%
Threatened with gun 10%
Threatened with knife 8%
Used knife 2%
Used gun 5%
Note: Percentages do not equal 100% because there were multiple responses.
* Incidents in which behavior occurred at least once.

If you want a refined stat percentage down to if they are lefties or righties, do your own research and bring it.

Here from one of your links:
Fighting Myths - notes from the American Society of Law Enforcement Trainers Conference
One of the myths about personal protection is the old misquoted statistic, "90% of all fights wind up on the ground." This statistic has been used to sell ground fighting systems as the ultimate in self defense. If you have been in the martial arts or personal protection game long enough you have certainly heard this thing tossed around. You may have even heard the source - "according to the LAPD".
That statistic is wrong, AND misused.

The ASLET conference featured training in joint lock takedowns with retired sergeant John L. Sommers, the very man who conducted the use of force study with the LAPD and designed their defensive tactics program. His study looked at 6000 use of force reports from the LAPD and found that 60% of the time the arresting officer was knocked to the ground. One of the major reasons for this is that California has the 3 strikes rule and recidivist criminals are more likely to fight back to try to get away. Here are some of the main problems with the way this statistic is misused:

1. The percentage is 60% not 90% the numbers are frequently inflated to seem more convincing. While 60% is a majority, that means that more than one third of incidents did not result in an officer being knocked down.

60% is still a majority and regardless if it is law enforcement vs civilian, etc it is still (usually) male vs male fighting. Again if you are standing by this as the truth, where is the actual report or is this just taekwondo hearsay? :wink: For this to be fact, give the link to the actual quote/ report.
tempehmomma wrote:The best martial art against multiple attackers is running.

Well d'uh. :roll: :shock: :lol: Unless you are in an enclosed space and can't run from them.

It is unfortunate, but many crimes are perpetrated by more than 1 attacker and while it true that the best best defense against multiple attackers is running - you don't always have the option to run. Per my experience this particular individual was on a train, surrounded by his attackers. When the train stopped and everybody got off the train, they attacked him. It spilled out into the street after the police started arriving and the assailants ran off. However, the victim grabbed hold of one of them and they started fighting and ended up on the ground.

I included this experience as I am more likely to be guided by my experience than some abstract numbers from a desk jockey. If you want to follow stats, good for you. I will follow my own experience as well as a desire to be prepared for all situations.

.flux you just noted that the class was MMA, not what discipline. As such the above isn't relevant to your question. Personally I would still recommend the Women's Class if it is self defense. If it is only women MMA, I would recommend the general MMA class. As a protection, ask the gym if you don't like the classes if they will let you change to the other class without penalties.
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Postby tempehmomma » Sun Jul 13, 2008 4:26 pm

flux- follow your next course of action. :)

OT- Crash I do not live my life worrying/planning for every possible worse case senario of a street attack. If my life was consumed by analizing ever worse case senario, the potential assailants have won by controlling my life.

I have a steel pipe for extreme circumstances. It took me 15 seconds to analyze, research, and train. Hit hard and fast! :wink: Oh wait, what if the attacker grabs the pipe from me? :? Now I need to purchase a side arm. :roll:
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Postby Crash » Sun Jul 13, 2008 5:41 pm

tempehmomma wrote: I have a steel pipe for extreme circumstances. It took me 15 seconds to analyze, research, and train. Hit hard and fast! :wink: Oh wait, what if the attacker grabs the pipe from me? :? Now I need to purchase a side arm. :roll:

Great martial arts advice. :roll: :lol:

As for living your life in fear, learning how to defend yourself is the way to make certain you don't live in fear, because you know how to defend yourself whatever happens. 8)

Again .flux, sorry for the interruptions. :oops:
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