Well meaning vegans spreading health misinformation.

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Well meaning vegans spreading health misinformation.

Postby hardcore iv » Tue Feb 26, 2013 1:42 pm

Interesting post from Jack Norris about animal protein and bone health. Hopefully the more people realise the whole animal protein leaches calcium from bones, causing osteoporosis, is a myth, they will stop spreading the misinformation and making themselves, and veganism, look stupid when a meat-eater takes a few minutes to look up that it's not true.

http://jacknorrisrd.com/?p=3839

This is only a drop in the ocean of the misinformation we are exposed to daily from nutty vegans on facebook, etc. The Melbourne vegan scene is overflowing with these banjos and 90% of facebook discussions turn into anti-vaccination, anti-fluoridation, raw foodism, 80/10/10, chemtrail nonsense. How do you deal with these people?
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Re: Well meaning vegans spreading health misinformation.

Postby silver » Tue Feb 26, 2013 3:02 pm

Give them a badge, it makes them smile.

Belief is a scary thing.
The only thing I think I truly believe is that everything I know is, if not wrong, certainly almost entirely inaccurate...
..and that everything you know is the same.

The last paragraph is interesting:
[quote] “Although HP [high protein] diets induce an increase in net acid and urinary calcium excretion, they do not seem to be linked to impaired calcium balance and no clinical data support the hypothesis of a detrimental effect of HP diet on bone health, except in the context of inadequate calcium supply.”


So lots of protein and an inadequate calcium supply are a bad mix (implying that it is worse than a low protein diet and an inadequate calcium supply).
So there is a qualified truth in the assertion 'animal protein leaches calcium from bones'.

Note to self, avoid all sweeping generalisations.
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Re: Well meaning vegans spreading health misinformation.

Postby blinki » Tue Feb 26, 2013 4:19 pm

I've never even heard that myth :lol: I tend to avoid the screw loose crowds. I just let them be because for the most part there's no real reasoning with them. I just make sure to make clear to non-vegans (when relevant) that there are vegans who like doughnuts far too much to even comtimplate them being 'toxic' and generally don't believe stupid shit.
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Re: Well meaning vegans spreading health misinformation.

Postby JP » Tue Feb 26, 2013 4:55 pm

actually not long ago it was still part of serious articles too, so i havent been able to make up my mind about the animal protein thing, good to know now :)
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Re: Well meaning vegans spreading health misinformation.

Postby kallefs » Tue Feb 26, 2013 8:08 pm

I thought it was milk who did it? Anyway, I ain't stupid enough to start discussing veganism based on health. Those chemtrails on the other hand! *puts on tin-foil hat*
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Re: Well meaning vegans spreading health misinformation.

Postby tal » Tue Feb 26, 2013 8:30 pm

Further evidence that there is no health argument for veganism.

As annoying as the health-only vegans can be, they are still vegan, which is good for the animals.

Just makes the rest of us look like idiots in the process.
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Re: Well meaning vegans spreading health misinformation.

Postby Linnéa76 » Wed Feb 27, 2013 8:39 am

I'd still like to know why the countries with the highest consumtion of milk also are the ones with the highest prevalence of ostoeporosis...

Agreed that arguments about veganism being healthier miss the point, we only need to show that it's healthy enough and then focus on the ethical arguments.
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Re: Well meaning vegans spreading health misinformation.

Postby JP » Wed Feb 27, 2013 11:17 am

surely, on average, its a little bit healthier anyway?

and if so, there must be reasons why :D
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Re: Well meaning vegans spreading health misinformation.

Postby silver » Wed Feb 27, 2013 11:56 am

[quote="JP"]surely, on average, its a little bit healthier anyway?

and if so, there must be reasons why :D



...because the average is so poor?

On another note it's really easy to have a very unhealthy vegan diet, so the average vegan diet might be as poor as the average western diet.
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Re: Well meaning vegans spreading health misinformation.

Postby mouche » Wed Feb 27, 2013 1:01 pm

[quote="silver"][quote="JP"]surely, on average, its a little bit healthier anyway?

and if so, there must be reasons why :D



...because the average is so poor?

On another note it's really easy to have a very unhealthy vegan diet, so the average vegan diet might be as poor as the average western diet.


This is what I always try to argue. It's not about "vegan diets" and "everything else" - it's about healthy diets, unhealthy diets, high-fat, high-protein, high-carb, 80/10/10, raw, whatever - and some are done through animal source, some aren't. I like to think that presenting the information in this way makes "a vegan diet" less daunting, and emphasises that you can eat whatever you want as long as it doesn't come from an animal.

Linnea, as far as your query is concerned, any chance that there is a correlation between countries where lots of dairy is consumed being in higher latitudes, and that the problem may therefore be more to do with lack of Vitamin D rather than high-calcium diets? (this is purely speculation, I haven't looked into the figures or statistics at all)
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Re: Well meaning vegans spreading health misinformation.

Postby Linnéa76 » Wed Feb 27, 2013 3:22 pm

[quote="mouche"][Linnea, as far as your query is concerned, any chance that there is a correlation between countries where lots of dairy is consumed being in higher latitudes, and that the problem may therefore be more to do with lack of Vitamin D rather than high-calcium diets? (this is purely speculation, I haven't looked into the figures or statistics at all)
That would be the first alternative explanation that comes to mind and could probably be a factor, but Finland is doing better than Sweden and Northern Asia apparently doesn't even come close to our rates of osteoporosis. (Finland consuming less dairy and Asia consuming much less dairy) Genes could also play a part... But the correlation seems to be a strong one.
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Re: Well meaning vegans spreading health misinformation.

Postby thestoatyone » Wed Feb 27, 2013 6:37 pm

[quote="Linnéa76"][quote="mouche"][Linnea, as far as your query is concerned, any chance that there is a correlation between countries where lots of dairy is consumed being in higher latitudes, and that the problem may therefore be more to do with lack of Vitamin D rather than high-calcium diets? (this is purely speculation, I haven't looked into the figures or statistics at all)
That would be the first alternative explanation that comes to mind and could probably be a factor, but Finland is doing better than Sweden and Northern Asia apparently doesn't even come close to our rates of osteoporosis. (Finland consuming less dairy and Asia consuming much less dairy) Genes could also play a part... But the correlation seems to be a strong one.


I would also put it down to the fact that poorer people walk further, have more manual jobs etc. Will be interesting to see if increases in meat consumption/decreases in activity levels that developing nations are experiencing change osteo levels, or whether there is an element of truth to the differing body shapes/compositions having an effect on it.
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Re: Well meaning vegans spreading health misinformation.

Postby Lordmuppet » Wed Feb 27, 2013 7:41 pm

yeah i flagged this in the recent discussion on calcium here. thanks for bringing it to more people's attention :) I think my original comment went under the radar
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Re: Well meaning vegans spreading health misinformation.

Postby beforewisdom » Wed Feb 27, 2013 7:57 pm

[quote="hardcore iv"]
This is only a drop in the ocean of the misinformation we are exposed to daily from nutty vegans on facebook, etc. The Melbourne vegan scene is overflowing with these banjos and 90% of facebook discussions turn into anti-vaccination, anti-fluoridation, raw foodism, 80/10/10, chemtrail nonsense. How do you deal with these people?


- or the blogs of well know vegan athletes selling products, cook book authors, etc.

You know this of course, but it is a very old situation. All you can do is politely state your information, telling people how you got it and then let them( or the silent audience) make their own decisions.

I was surprised with how bad the vegan FB groups are. More superstitious and anti-science than another not to be named internet place.

I ran into the anti-fluoridation people in some other places on the Internet recently so I decided to do a Google search on the issue. I found mountains of fear mongering sites that only sited other blogs or other fringe sites. I think I then read the Mayo Clinic or some similar orgs account of fluoride use and felt very relieved. I guess it comes down to a choice of believing people who have studied and researched for years or believing someone who hasn't.
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