Vote against the tories on 6th May

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Re: Vote against the tories on 6th May

Postby longdogs » Mon May 10, 2010 1:52 pm

It's a fair point Gelert, i guess i didn't think that through! :D .
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Re: Vote against the tories on 6th May

Postby Hiking Fox » Mon May 10, 2010 3:42 pm

.flux wrote: It's really weird not having any say in a country I've lived, worked and paid taxes in for a decade.


I've never understood that, either. How come ex-pat Brits can vote (as far as I'm aware), whereas people born in other clusters of islands who have made this one their home cannot?

If it were up to me, I'd make it so that only people who use the NHS and state schools are allowed to vote, but that would be too difficult to administer.

It will be interesting to see what happens over the coming months. One good thing that happened in the 1980s was that lots of young people got politicised and started getting into campaigning when they were students and young workers. Some of them are still very active in green issues today. The 1990s seemed characterised by a lot more apathy in young people, and campaigning became downright 'uncool'. Will David Cameron fire people up, or are those grassroots activism days gone for good?
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Re: Vote against the tories on 6th May

Postby Gelert » Mon May 10, 2010 4:31 pm

Interesting times.

Hiking Fox wrote:will David Cameron fire people up


Not sure if he could afford to do that on his JSA.

Gordon Brown has done the decent thing at last and finally put the figurative mess Webley in his mouth.

The next few hours/days will tell if Lab/Lib pull together a coalition.

If so, it would be hard for Cameron to survive as leader.

As much as I'd prefer the tories not to be in charge, I'm not sure what the point of an election is if the parties that came second and third, both losing seats badly get to run the country. Is there democracy in that seeing after all that more people voted for Call Me Dave than either Broon or Shagger Clegg? Is there "stable government" if a Lab/Lib coalition that Brown died on the cross for puts together 315 seats to the Tories' 306 (potentially plus a couple of smaller parties - I feel dirty that Plaid Cymru were apparently open to offers)? How long before the government falls and another election has to be called?

So if the coalition forms, then the question might be this, given a little longer:

Will Boris Johnson fire people up, or are those grassroots activism days gone for good?
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Re: Vote against the tories on 6th May

Postby longdogs » Mon May 10, 2010 5:44 pm

I don't see how a Con-Lib coalition could be tenable.. whatever people voted for it wasn't for that for anyone, surely. Is a coalition of everything-but-the-tories fair? More people didn't vote Tory than did.. even though they had most seats and votes. It takes some getting our heads round a situation which is routine in most of Europe, power-sharing between the politically closest majority. But i am totally biased as i wouldn't piss on the Conservatives if they were on fire!
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Re: Vote against the tories on 6th May

Postby Talyn » Mon May 10, 2010 6:58 pm

Gelert wrote:As much as I'd prefer the tories not to be in charge, I'm not sure what the point of an election is if the parties that came second and third, both losing seats badly get to run the country.


If you look at votes, instead of seats: Conservatives have 10.5mil, Labour and Lib Dem combined have 15mil. The whole concept of seats in this country is flawed, when each one contains a different amount of voters.

And based on the same logic, the tories only received 35% of the votes. How exactly does that make them first?
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Re: Vote against the tories on 6th May

Postby Gelert » Mon May 10, 2010 8:34 pm

Talyn wrote:If you look at votes, instead of seats: Conservatives have 10.5mil, Labour and Lib Dem combined have 15mil. The whole concept of seats in this country is flawed, when each one contains a different amount of voters.

And based on the same logic, the tories only received 35% of the votes. How exactly does that make them first?


Because the "others" got 29% and 23% respectively?

There's also not a massive variation in the population per seat either, excepting an over-representation from Wales. You can see the value of the seat system often in how delineated and consistent the areas voting different colours are.

I'm not sure why the Lib Dems are so keen on PR. Is it because it's their only chance of ever getting power on their own two feet? Moi? Cynical?
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Re: Vote against the tories on 6th May

Postby JP » Mon May 10, 2010 8:42 pm

in many countries with fairer voting systems the biggest party usually starts the negotiations, but if it fails then the next biggest parties will start negotiations. Its not a big deal.

but in this country where media and people too are used to the two party system with clear majority one party governments the situation is alien - which to someone from country with different voting system sounds really funny :)
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Re: Vote against the tories on 6th May

Postby Talyn » Mon May 10, 2010 9:16 pm

Gelert wrote:Because the "others" got 29% and 23% respectively?


Yep. But when 23% = 9% of the seats for one party yet 35% = 46% of the seats for another. It kind of shows the imbalance.

Gelert wrote:There's also not a massive variation in the population per seat either, excepting an over-representation from Wales. You can see the value of the seat system often in how delineated and consistent the areas voting different colours are.


Perhaps, and it may come down to poor (or good) campaigning. eg, knowing which seats are marginal and ignoring the ones that you already have massive support.

But I voted knowing full well that my vote was wasted (massive labour presence in east london). If I vote labour its wasted, if I vote libdem its wasted. In a PR system, I could vote knowing that even if the LibDem candidate wasn't going to win, that my vote would still go towards the party and could directly have a say. When that is replicated throughout safe seats across the country, you may well see a different (and arguably more equal) result, one way or the other.
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Re: Vote against the tories on 6th May

Postby thestoatyone » Mon May 10, 2010 9:43 pm

People vote for someone to represent their interests. The person then goes off and acts to best further your interests. They can do anything and you don't can't vote them out for another 4/5 years. If you don't like that, petition the government for electoral reform. Simple.
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Re: Vote against the tories on 6th May

Postby Johnstuff » Wed May 12, 2010 12:51 pm

So cameron is pm, noooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo! :( :( :(


I was very dissapointed not to have been able to vote green, there was no green option on my voting form, no socialists either.

Seem like you have to vote for more shit or less shit but you can only vote for shit. Even greens arn't nearly radical enough. This is not a democracy (and couldn't be while ever big corporations control the media that brainwashes the masses)!

Time to join a union I think!
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Re: Vote against the tories on 6th May

Postby E-P » Thu May 13, 2010 11:35 pm

Soooo, coalition agreement is out. Not great opinions about it expect that two thumbs up for scrapping the ID card madness and the data bases but two thumbs down for the changes in immigration laws as it might make my wife's immigration to the UK more difficult. Well, there are still ALL just words on paper. We'll see what is going to happen.
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Re: Vote against the tories on 6th May

Postby Hiking Fox » Mon May 17, 2010 9:02 am

thestoatyone wrote: They can do anything and you don't can't vote them out for another 4/5 years. If you don't like that, petition the government for electoral reform. Simple.


Another approach is to ignore the ClownDance in parliament as best you can, becoming even more cynical about it and focussing instead on practical action we can take in our own communities to help improve our own and other's lives.

A quick glance at my local paper reveals that animal rescues still seek helpers, the Refugee Forum is still looking for volunteer mentors to befriend asylum seekers and help them get to grips with British culture, and there's a charity that matches up prisoners awaiting release with mentors who'll help them gain confidence, apply for college etc. I think I'd rather get stuck into summat like that and ignore the CameronClegg chimera for a while.

BTW, I'm told that when Cameron speaks, he sounds exactly like Baldrick off Blackadder trying to explain a "cunning plan". Can anyone confirm this?
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Re: Vote against the tories on 6th May

Postby Gelert » Mon May 17, 2010 10:29 am

Hiking Fox wrote:BTW, I'm told that when Cameron speaks, he sounds exactly like Baldrick off Blackadder trying to explain a "cunning plan". Can anyone confirm this?



I hadn't noticed this.

I've only watched his "I'm your boss now and all your base belong to me" speech.

It wasn't delivered with Maggie Thatcher's nod to St. Francis of Assisi ("Where there is harmony, may we bring discord, where there is truth, may we bring error, where there is faith may we bring doubt, and where there is hope, may we bring despair" or something like that) but it was scary how he used some of the exact same phrases about entitlements and obligations.

For what it's worth though, he appeared a confident, relaxed and self-assured speaker who spoke without notes, despite it being his first (and important) speech as PM delivered at short notice. In fact for five minutes he spoke without rambling, repeating or deviating and only pissmonouncing one word. If he sounds like Baldrick normally, he didn't then. Did Eton proud. These institutions get a slagging for all the fagging and drunken rampages in £1200 dinner suits, but they do produce convincing bullshitters.

It was interesting to contrast with his predecessor who needed ten pages of notes, constantly referred to and fondled, to basically say in a string of cliches that he had been promoted to his level of incompetence and that he was off. All delivered with as much conviction as a second hand car dealer trying to flog you a Toyota with a dodgy pedal. Not to mention the Nursemaid's elbow he almost gave his son when making a set piece of dragging him and the rest of the family out of Downing Street.
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Re: Vote against the tories on 6th May

Postby Big Good Wolf » Tue May 18, 2010 7:14 pm

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Re: Vote against the tories on 6th May

Postby Hiking Fox » Wed May 19, 2010 9:14 am

It's got binary on it, I want it!
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