Veganism, Poseurism and McDonald's Propaganda

[jamesndawson]

I've heard a song on the radio a few times I sort of liked and decided just a moment ago to find out who sang it and what it was all about by doing a Google search of the lyrics that I could make out.

It turned out to be White Flag Warrior by Rise Against. It was on some sort of lyrics page, that I don't remember at the moment. Anyway, at the top was an ad for some sort of McDonalds "super burger". This struck me as bitterly ironic, given it's juxtaposition, maybe even "top billing" over the idealistic song lyrics---Rise Against is a hardcore vegan/vegetarian band with strong animal-rights beliefs. It seemed almost like an arrogant and sinister "victory statement" of social conformity and crass consumerism over idealism. I wonder, does Rise Against know about it? And if so, what do they think? I'm not crying "SELL OUT!", but I just sometimes wonder, as an old, square, boring, burned-out vegan myself, how much all this "hip, strident, hardcore" veganism is a huge pose, a charade with little substance? As a word and rallying cry, veganism has grown by leaps and bounds, but as a practice, statistics have shown it's no bigger than it was 20 or 30 years ago.

Maybe I'm just in another of my cynical, pessimistic, aging-crank moods.

Any thoughts?

James N. Dawson

[Big Good Wolf]

I doubt that the band have any choice over the adverts on an independent lyrics website.
More likely that the "random" advert is chosen from a list because of certain keywords on the page.

[sosso]

They probably have no idea that the website exists. Anyone can make a song lyrics website. You're over-thinking things..

[Talyn]

Rise Against are all vegans, so I highly doubt they would endorse that.

It's just a lyrics page that someone else owns. Heck, I sometimes used to see non-vegan ads at the bottom of VF - but that doesn't mean anything, does it?

This thread should be scourged by fire immediatley for even suggesting it

[jamesndawson]

Yes, I'm aware that Rise Against isn't and shouldn't be considered responsible for the ads that appear on the same page as their lyrics, etc. Maybe I misworded my observation. The irony and disappointment is how all their passion seems to be just "looked through" and "ignored".

The issues of hyper-insularity, self-marginalization, and poseurism, not only in "punk", but many, many "alternative" sub-cultures, is one that has been taken seriously, explored and bandied about for decades---even by punks, and members of those groups.

The role such subcultural "behaviors" and "dynamics" plays in the progress or hindrance of veganism and animal rights is a legitimate one, based on a sincere concern for animals. "Movement self-criticism" is necessary even though it may make "rank and file" members uncomfortable. The idea that anything less than flattering being broached about somebody's favorite rock band, should be shunned or censored, doesn't seem very good for the trouble-shooting and understanding.

The standstill in progress for veganism alongside its apparent "popularity" puzzles me. I think it's an important question. I respect the efforts and sincerity of Rise Against and many other hardworking vegans for the cause, but I care more about animals and actual progress for them, than staying on the good side of cliques, luminaries, rock stars, et al. I look to the day when veganism is universal and boring, and becomes as obscure in use as the word for most omnivores, "non-cannibal".

[xrodolfox]

I still have no idea what you are getting at.

[XkillerX]

Me neither.

[Talyn]

[Gelert]

It's just a lyrics page that someone else owns. Heck, I sometimes used to see non-vegan ads at the bottom of VF - but that doesn't mean anything, does it?

Doesn't it?

There's no smoke without fire.

A site like this would be ideal in the wrong hands. Consider this kind of thing, from an open source http://www.theregister.co.uk/2009/09/16 ... gainst_uk/ the nutshell of which being that last year the United States Special Operations Command (Christians in Action's harder, less sedentary cousins) awarded a $10m contract to a defence contractor with particular competence in English (British dialect) to develop sites (like VF, although certainly more likely to be talebanfitness.net) and post on them, play around with Google AdWords etc etc as part of its influence and media (read: black propaganda) operations. No great shakes, but it's all going on. Always has been. Always will be.

My money's on xKillerx. His English (British dialect) is far too good for being a Serbian lesbian. Just wait for the ardent denial delivered in authentic cockney. I'll bet he stares at goats(e) in his spare time.

[xrodolfox]

[Talyn]

deleted

[Johnboy74]

Firstly, I don't understand why your all misunderstanding James post?
If your don't understand his point is it not best to ask rather than being childish?

Yes, I'm aware that Rise Against isn't and shouldn't be considered responsible for the ads that appear on the same page as their lyrics, etc. Maybe I misworded my observation. The irony and disappointment is how all their passion seems to be just "looked through" and "ignored".

The issues of hyper-insularity, self-marginalization, and poseurism, not only in "punk", but many, many "alternative" sub-cultures, is one that has been taken seriously, explored and bandied about for decades---even by punks, and members of those groups.

The role such subcultural "behaviors" and "dynamics" plays in the progress or hindrance of veganism and animal rights is a legitimate one, based on a sincere concern for animals. "Movement self-criticism" is necessary even though it may make "rank and file" members uncomfortable. The idea that anything less than flattering being broached about somebody's favorite rock band, should be shunned or censored, doesn't seem very good for the trouble-shooting and understanding.

The standstill in progress for veganism alongside its apparent "popularity" puzzles me. I think it's an important question. I respect the efforts and sincerity of Rise Against and many other hardworking vegans for the cause, but I care more about animals and actual progress for them, than staying on the good side of cliques, luminaries, rock stars, et al. I look to the day when veganism is universal and boring, and becomes as obscure in use as the word for most omnivores, "non-cannibal".

It puzzles me, how veganism seems to be ever more present in modern society but change for animals very little.
I do wonder sometimes about the rise in numbers of vegans, especially in ~Uk and USA, I have a sneaky feeling that there is little
substance behind some peoples veganism. This can be said for vegans closely linked to music and subcultural scenes where veganism
is evident.

I met with Seitan awhile ago and he was/is quite big in the vegan punk scene and we chatted about various things.
One thing that struck me was how many of the people he knew well in the music scene had gone back on their veganism and even startedcgoing to mcDonalds which obviously disappointed Seitan. But how many vegans go back on their veganism, I've heard of quite a few andcit puzzles me and leads to questions of conviction in the first place.

I'm not knocking people going vegan but to go vegan and then go back on your veganism unless for medical reasons is quite pathetic.

[xrodolfox]

I was asking, in hopes to get a clearer response. I do not want to spend my time responding with ire (as I have done before) to irony, or inside jokes, or comments I did not clearly understand.

I can surely argue like hell with what I *think* James said... but that would be like arguing against a straw man because I can make a really simple and weak impression of what I *think* James said and respond to that. Right now, that's where I'm at. Jame's statements make very little sense to me because they seem really hallow.

I want to give him the opportunity to clarify so that I can either agree with him, or actually disagree with something that carries weight.

I don't get what he is saying. I hope he explains himself straightforwardly.

I am mostly getting confused in the "role of subculture behaviors and dynamics". Nope. That's not even it. The words aren't confusing... it is the over-use of "colons". I can't tell if they are ironic or used instead of italics, or for lack of better "explanation". Or what. It is friking "ridiculous". [that last part was to obfuscate for my pleasure]

[jamesndawson]

Thanks, Johnboy, for the support.

After seeing Gelert's comments and Talyn's reply, I thought I may as well just let it go. Actually, I wasn't even quite sure what he was getting at, and if or how much it was directed at me, or somebody on the website he linked to. I got the general drift that I or someone else was a nutcase, mole and sexual pervert (that stares at goats), but I wasn't sure if I was misunderstanding or being just being paranoid. If the latter, responding would only reinforce the original "joke".

If I *was* the target, I realize I can be a bit wordy. Maybe I've got some sort of Aspergers condition. Maybe I read too many British-authored short stories in my teens. I was born in Sandpoint, Idaho, grew up mostly in Western Washington, lived in California for 22 years, and am now back in Washington, the eastern half. Since I was in my early 20's people have commented that I, and my two brothers, had "accents". One policeman who stopped me asked me if I was from this country (USA, CA), saying I sounded "foreign". I was never aware of having an accent, and when I hear myself speak, I'm still not. Frankly, I wish I didn't have it, but except for long, expensive voice training lessons, I guess I'm stuck with it.

My original comment here sort of jumbled several points together, I admit, a little clumsily. I tried to correct that in my second comment. People were still confused....or skeptical.

I can see the concerns I expressed have confused, offended, maybe even bored people. My apologies. I know they're a bit heady, and if you're not into that kind of thing, they may seem like a lot of "paranoid nonsense". I can also see how they have cut a little close to the emotional bone of the esprit du corps that understandably many vegans feel toward fellow vegans, worldwide and their own cybercommunities.

So I think it's best I save this for one of my zines. I don't think I can really clarify what I've already said, without the risk of confusing the issue further.

No hard feelings.

[The Duke]

Personally, I think this thread is a Duchampian Dadaist masterpiece.

The disconencts, segues, subtle shifts, in jokes, self referencing statements, and bizarre metaphores have been a delight.

James, as old men both, I think we should take ourselves off this minute and shout at a cloud in an outrageous French accent and then taunt your so called police officer for a second time.