Porn = not vegan

Armchair politics, ethical soapbox and current affairs. Place to discuss vegan ethics and general ethics and politics. Be nice.

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Postby Beck Bristow » Tue Oct 20, 2009 9:21 am

[quote="Johnboy74"]You two still slapping dicks :roll:


And, pray tell, what better is there to do while avoiding doing real work? :D
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Postby Linnéa76 » Tue Oct 20, 2009 7:56 pm

Ok, so I've read the original post and most of the answers and I think I've understood the rules of the Ethics, politics and current affairs section:

Do not post links with information about people getting abused within a certain industry unless you can prove that 1. This happens to everyone within that industry without exception and 2. Nobody gets abused in any other industry.

Furthermore, do not suggest that supposedly empathical vegans should think twice before supporting that industry or you might get told that your ethical concerns don't belong in the VF Ethics section.

I guess that leaves the animal industry and congratulating each other on being morally superior as the only acceptable subjects.
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Postby emm7 » Wed Oct 21, 2009 7:01 pm

I don't agree with pornography but I want to add the related note that those who sexually coerce their partners are not necessarily influenced by pornography. Indeed there are rapists who reject pornography. They much prefer to act out the mistreatment of women in real life rather than watch it on the small screen.
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Postby Mr. Cleetus » Wed Oct 21, 2009 11:26 pm

great post Linnéa76. I have a very similar understanding.


[quote="Linnéa76"]Ok, so I've read the original post and most of the answers and I think I've understood the rules of the Ethics, politics and current affairs section:

Do not post links with information about people getting abused within a certain industry unless you can prove that 1. This happens to everyone within that industry without exception and 2. Nobody gets abused in any other industry.

Furthermore, do not suggest that supposedly empathical vegans should think twice before supporting that industry or you might get told that your ethical concerns don't belong in the VF Ethics section.

I guess that leaves the animal industry and congratulating each other on being morally superior as the only acceptable subjects.
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Postby xrodolfox » Thu Oct 22, 2009 2:35 am

[quote="Linnéa76"]Ok, so I've read the original post and most of the answers and I think I've understood the rules of the Ethics, politics and current affairs section:

Do not post links with information about people getting abused within a certain industry unless you can prove that 1. This happens to everyone within that industry without exception and 2. Nobody gets abused in any other industry.

Furthermore, do not suggest that supposedly empathical vegans should think twice before supporting that industry or you might get told that your ethical concerns don't belong in the VF Ethics section.

I guess that leaves the animal industry and congratulating each other on being morally superior as the only acceptable subjects.


I re-read this thread to check on what your wrote, and I don't see that at all.

I don't think that any "side", as I understand it, is holding on to absolutes. What I understand, is that some folks say that (dominant) pornography should be examined as unethical. Other folks are saying that not all pornography is necessarily unethical, while clearly, some is.

There is a lot of overlap, as I understand it.

It just happens that some of this discussion, instead of being about the specifics about what actually being talked about, devolved into scare tactics and extremes instead of a real conversation. One side showed the worst case scenarios in porn, which are very real, and very problematic, and clearly unethical; but as the norm. Meanwhile, others pointed out that porn is just like another industry, and the extreme cases don't apply to all porn.

...and the valid critique of dominant porn got lost in the hyperbole.


(Believe me, I'm sure that we could write volumes and volumes on the stuff we all agree is unethical in dominant porn and the related sex industry)

So what you wrote doesn't resonate with me. I don't see it.

I see hyperbole, and sloppy arguments, while the "ball" was lost.
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Postby Dave Noisy » Thu Oct 22, 2009 7:57 pm

[quote="Beck Bristow"]Exploitation - bad, but subjective in regard to porn as to who truly is exploited as we can't know every story and speculation leads to assumptions which could be inaccurate.

This is bordering on masturbatory (no pun intended.) I'd prefer to see less efforts at rationalizing and justifying porn.

[quote]Porn - vegan in definition. Like it or hate it, that's your choice, but it's a personal issue moreso than a 'vegan' one that can be proven to be good or bad via a few choice links to one-sided stories.

I think that what pops in the minds of most people when they hear 'porn' is very questionable. Yes, the broader dictionary definition of "pornography" may not be inherently non-vegan, but there is more to the subject than a dictionary definition, and it certainly doesn't help to educate people to respond in this way.

[quote]Can we simply agree that people in the porn biz should all be treated fairly in their work as should be in ANY industry?

Gee - you're really pushing the boundaries here. Exceptional request.

I'm sure we can get most meat-eaters to say that all animals should be treated better, does that make eating animals okay then?
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Postby Dave Noisy » Thu Oct 22, 2009 8:00 pm

Thank you, i feel much the same after participating in this thread.

And whatever the hell you do, don't EVER bring up the subject of individual humans being abused in an industry. It's justifiable because there are other industries that abuse humans too!

Didn't realize this 'ethics' subject was so easy to resolve.
[quote="Linnéa76"]Ok, so I've read the original post and most of the answers and I think I've understood the rules of the Ethics, politics and current affairs section:

Do not post links with information about people getting abused within a certain industry unless you can prove that 1. This happens to everyone within that industry without exception and 2. Nobody gets abused in any other industry.

Furthermore, do not suggest that supposedly empathical vegans should think twice before supporting that industry or you might get told that your ethical concerns don't belong in the VF Ethics section.

I guess that leaves the animal industry and congratulating each other on being morally superior as the only acceptable subjects.
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Postby xrodolfox » Thu Oct 22, 2009 8:06 pm

[quote="Dave Noisy"]And whatever the hell you do, don't EVER bring up the subject of individual humans being abused in an industry. It's justifiable because there are other industries that abuse humans too!


I think that part of the confusion in this thread has to do with what folks are asking for.

Dave, are you asking for a boycott of porn?

I don't think that anyone is saying, "don't bring up human abuse in industry". As a union organizer, i would begrudge anyone who claimed that I don't have worker issues at heart, including the sex industry.
"The worker has the right to leave his boss, but can she do it? And if she does quit him, is it in order to lead a free life; where she will have no master but herself? No, she leaves to sell herself to another employer. She's driven by the same hunger. Thus the worker's liberty is only a theoretical freedom, lacking any means of realization; an utter falsehood."
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Postby Beck Bristow » Fri Oct 23, 2009 2:39 am

I did NOT want to have any reason to reply to anything here any longer, but every time I try to leave it be, something requires a response.

[quote="Dave Noisy"]
This is bordering on masturbatory (no pun intended.) I'd prefer to see less efforts at rationalizing and justifying porn.


As i would like to see a more objective stance from some here that isn't based solely on their own moral objections and personal feelings and more on the cold, hard truths. I guess neither of us is going to get what we want.

[quote="Dave Noisy"] I think that what pops in the minds of most people when they hear 'porn' is very questionable. Yes, the broader dictionary definition of "pornography" may not be inherently non-vegan, but there is more to the subject than a dictionary definition, and it certainly doesn't help to educate people to respond in this way.


Education? Pray tell, where was there any education in this thread? It was people saying porn by definition is not/should not be vegan, then people saying it was, and everyone flying by emotion and forgetting that it's not all absolutes. This ended up a complete disaster because nobody could maintain being objective without letting their own moral objections or emotions overrule neutral logic. There's been no educating, only bickering, and I don't expect anything else from here on out.

[quote]Can we simply agree that people in the porn biz should all be treated fairly in their work as should be in ANY industry?

[quote="Dave Noisy"]
Gee - you're really pushing the boundaries here. Exceptional request.


May I ask, where's the accompanying sarcasm emoticon to show that, even though I'm in agreeance in this area, it's not enough because I somehow don't think all porn is inherently evil and exploitative? I know it should be here somewhere...

I know, I know, it's not enough for you to have people agree on that. Underneath it all, you have a strong unspoken will that is focused against pornograhpy in the common notion. You've made it clear before, and you're making it clear here now, even if you won't just come out and say it.

[quote="Dave Noisy"] I'm sure we can get most meat-eaters to say that all animals should be treated better, does that make eating animals okay then?

Again, comparing fucking on camera for income to being raised for slaughter is so spot-on, nobody in their right mind would argue this comparison for fear of looking like a rube :roll:

Your obvious leaning toward the anti-porn stance, for the hundredth time, does not speak for all people in the industry. I NEVER denied that some are exlpoited, but you tend to overlook this at every opportunity. If you can't accept that you don't speak for everyone in porn, then there's not any point in trying to discuss this with you. If I'm completely off base here, then please, post a paragraph about how you perceive pornography, the pros and cons, and how you think you hold an unbiased stance regarding it in general. I have the feeling I won't see this, but at the least, I can ask for it to watch it get shrugged off. Taking the time to reply to that would call your hand of being overtly anti-porn in general, and you couldn't obfuscate your agenda any longer.

Your opinion is based on your own moral objections that you've created and are your own thoughts that you're projecting as fact. Your continual inferences that porn [in the mainstream sense] is inherently exploitative without question is flawed and tedious. Drawing awkward and oft flawed comparisons between the porn industry and factory farming is something that I'd expect out of a Carol Adams book, but hoped for people to think beyond when confronted with someone trying to not make this all black-and-white. Your perception of all porn being exploitative is simply that - your perception, and that does not completely coincide with all people in that industry and with all who view porn. If that's your stance, then that's your stance, but it's based on YOUR moral objections to it and does not mean that everyone else should feel the same way. I don't see what's so difficult to grasp about having a disagreement over the fact that you have objections to porn in general, and I am trying to maintain neutrality, yet you keep pegging me as one to justify it simply because I don't see in absolutes. I'm done with this - pin a medal on your chest for 'winner by specious reasoning' and call it a day.

Geez. I didn't realize that if you didn't agree with the outspoken moral objectionists here that you would be pounded on with the same tired arguments and assumptions until you were driven away. That, if someone considers something inherently cruel or exploitative, they'll keep inferring that you're somehow less vegan or are supporting a cruel industry if you don't agree with their FEELINGS, even if they don't hold absolute truth. Some of you need to learn how to separate your own emotions to be a bit more objective and not see everything for what you want it to be, rather, to view something for what it really is. I'm sure my saying that will open up doors for the high-horse folks to say that I'm justifying again and they'll make some stupid comparisons to meat eating or whatever tedious thing pops to mind, because that'll make them feel better.

I shouldn't have started posting with any hopes up that I'd get anything beside the usual reactions from the same people who see the world in absolutes. What on earth was I thinking, trying to maintain an objective neutrality based on fact, when this should just be one more emotional hot-button for people to get pissy over when we don't all agree?
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Postby JuicyJ » Fri Oct 23, 2009 3:26 am

so I went to the sex shop with my "friend" to get some new toys (all rechargeable and vegan)
are we still allowed to do that????? or am I supporting the industry as the sex shop also sells porn.Where do you want me to draw the vegan line :wink:
They told me we would get a gift in our bag
Lo and behold a small vibrator and 2 porn DVD's :twisted: :lol:

I didn't buy them.... am I still allowed to watch :shock:


just thought I would lighten the mood with a personal anecdote :)

peace all
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Postby XkillerX » Fri Oct 23, 2009 6:53 am

judging by what is.written i dont think vegans are allowed to have sex at all. or fun. or a life. jj three strikes you are out!
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Postby Beck Bristow » Fri Oct 23, 2009 8:14 am

[quote="JuicyJ"]I didn't buy them.... am I still allowed to watch :shock:


Only if you're willing to accept that you've just contributed to the sad fate of unsupecting stars who are now part of the dark, seedy underbelly of the mafia-controlled porn world. A world where all actors and actresses were abducted against their will and subsequently strung out on drugs and are no better off than cattle awaiting slaughter, because they never wanted to be a part of that industry and are far too stupid to want to be doing that work of their own free will. After watching, you will objectify the opposite sex to the utmost degree, and you'll undoubtedly end up a rapist who destroys families and the lives of everyone you come in contact with. THAT is what porn does to everyone involved! :lol: :lol: :lol:
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Postby Johnboy74 » Fri Oct 23, 2009 9:26 am

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Most atheists see themselves as realists - their atheism is a part of their willingness to square up to the world as it is and face it without recourse to superstition or comforting fictions about a life to come or a benevolent power looking after us.
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Postby JuicyJ » Fri Oct 23, 2009 3:18 pm

[quote="Beck Bristow"]
After watching, you will objectify the opposite sex to the utmost degree, and you'll undoubtedly end up a rapist who destroys families and the lives of everyone you come in contact with. THAT is what porn does to everyone involved! :lol: :lol: :lol:


I am a girl -doubt this will happen 8)
Besides I already objectify the opposite sex - only in the nicest, most caring loving, compassionate, and respectful way :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
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Postby helmut » Sun Oct 25, 2009 4:24 pm

[quote="XkillerX"]judging by what is.written i dont think vegans are allowed to have sex at all. or fun. or a life. jj three strikes you are out!


yeah, thats exactly the message i intended this thread to convey!! you've hit the nail on the head!

:roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll:

i'm sorry that this thread descended to such depths. my only intention was to highlight the suffering of some workers in an industry that many people have dealings with. many people may not have considered it before. i certainly hadn't given it too much thought. extreme case scenarios : sure! i am willing to accept that its the minority who experience such extreme exploitation as written in the stories in the first link. but i don't doubt it's existence. i think its rather insulting to compare the instances of abuse to exploitation in other industries in the capitalist western world such as hospitality. there's really no parallel. anyway i'm really tiring of this thread so i don't think i'll add any more. just that in my first post i just wanted to highlight what i saw as an injustice. the information i came across was a horrifying shock to me and i wanted to share it.

-END-
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