Am I being unreasonable?

[Linnéa76]

I was curious about the peta banner mentioned here and found it on their website... "Save the whales", was that the best they could think of? But I don't think it's wrong per se to draw attention to the fact that veg*ns as a group have better health and tend not to be overweight. If people become vegans only for healthreasons, it's still a good thing I think.
The banner with "Bypass heart surgery" was also pretty embarrassing...

[erske]

I always think it's problematic when veganism is portrayed as just a diet..

[calico]

I understand that not all of you have had the struggle some of us had, so I am divulging a bit of personal info in hopes you can understand better.

I admit it -- I am one of those "fat" women who (according to some people) "eats too much" and (supposedly) "isn't active". One thing has been constant in my life: no matter what I weighed, there's always been someone who said I was fat.

I don't seem to eat as much as my thinner friends, and I don't eat meat, rarely drink, & never do fast-food. And I rarely sit still. I used to blame myself for my weight, believing somehow I was a bad person by having this body type. Over the years I came to realize (through countless diets, doctors, and gym memberships), this is just how I am. I am not the lazy or gluttonous pig that fat people are made out to be. I am not hiding "behind my fat", mentally ill, or a victim of abuse. There is no secret subconscious meaning. And if you want to blame me for what my scale says, you may as well try to blame me for what color my eyes are. Neither is likely to change anytime soon.

My lowest adult weight was back as a teenager in college. I had so little padding it hurt to lay on a hard surface, I was that bony. However, I still did not fit the government weight chart. With a larger 5'10" frame, I was always a plus size. I remember being ashamed that I had to shop at the fat-people stores, and I'd sneak in during off hours. But I was as active as anyone: I had no car on campus, so I was walking constantly plus Scuba class & swim workouts, visits to the gym, and generally keeping busy. Looking back, I was not overweight, but I was convinced I was because that's what the weight charts and the fashion industry said. Our culture doesn't even let normal weight people relax -- the message is "thinner, thinner!"

Over the years, I used to believe people who said "just eat less". I was painfully (ravenously!) hungry quite a bit. It didn't help the weight but it did make me tired and irritable, so I may not be fun to hang around. I blamed myself that I couldn't fit into the hottest little fashions. I've exercised to the point of hurting myself (shin splints, back strain, repetitive stress injuries). I did diets. Supplements. Doctors & specialists. You name it, I've done it, in the name of changing my body to look the way others think it should look. And even with hours of exercise a day, I gained weight (muscle) but I didn't lose an inch off my waist.

The reality is that I will never be a size zero. I will never be a skinny little Britney Spears. All I want is for people to stop telling women like myself to look more like celebrities or models.

In the quest to change to meet society's ideal, I've spent my whole life talking to more experts and trying more things than you can possibly imagine. Having someone who doesn't know me tell me to "just eat less" falls somewhere between unhelpful and insulting.

I'm now pretty much ok with my body shape. If someone else isn't ok with me, I now realize it's their problem not mine. But it does get old hearing gems of wisdom such as "watch portion size" or "try taking the stairs". I bite my tongue and resist the urge to say "gee I had not thought of that". But I nod politely and thank them, because I know they cannot possibly understand what it's like.

Vets have a similar problem trying to get owners to realise that there is no escape from the fact that too much food, and not enough exercise, causes their animals to be fat.

My cats must not have gotten that information, because I have thin ones and heavy ones, even know they all have the same access to food (free choice). Two cats I have at the moment are rather chubby, even when kept away from the wet food. The chubby ones don't live at the food dish. The most active is my youngest who is coincidentally one of big ones. How do we explain it?

My dogs also get free choice food, and my vet is happy with their consistently good weight. Why is it some can eat the same food as others and not gain?

that doesn't change the scientific fact that consuming more calories than you expend is going to make you put on weight.

I respectfully disagree that's how the formula works. Base metabolic rate can vary, even in people who are active. I'm not a doctor but I can think of easily half a dozen hormones which control how calories are digested/stored/utilized, and if any one of those hormones is ignored or not produced enough, you can have problems. Simple efficiency of the adipose [fat] tissue in absorbing extra nutrients makes a difference. Number of adipose cells and type is correlated with how likely a person is to hold onto their calories. Previous eating style (eg starvation diets) not only control how many calories you store but increase your hunger.

Take the example of someone who is put on a calorie restricted diet. Commonly what happens is they start to lose a few pounds, but their body adjusts to a lower rate and weight loss diminishes. Restrict calories too much and your body goes into a starvation mode, holding on to every calorie you take in. It's not as simple as "eat less".

Every disorder/syndrome you mentioned applies to < 1% of overweight people. I hate to tell you, but it IS calories in vs. calories out. People may differ in their genes, but it just doesn't account for THAT much of a discrepancy....

Can you point me to how you came up with the <1% figure?

The research I've read shows they've just started discovering the actual genes which effect weight loss/metabolism. We have no way of knowing yet what % of the population is affected.

http://www.hhmi.org/genesweshare/d130.html
http://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/67666.php
http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m ... _72789126/
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/20 ... 210425.htm

If we don't 100% understand how the body regulates metabolism and hunger, how can we judge other people's weight as a sign of failure?




Overall: As a culture, we lose sight of the fact that having excess body fat is not a new issue which only appeared 50 or 100 years ago. If people get access to the amount of food that they're hungry for, some will eat themselves to a higher weight, plain and simple. Look at the standard of beauty in renaissance paintings. If anything, historically a little body fat was embraced and loved. It's only been recently we've become so obsessed with runway models and minimum body fat numbers.

Here is a fun web page: estimates of celebrity BMI:
http://diet.health.com/2009/01/08/surpr ... rity-bmis/
Arnold Schwarzenegger and Tony Romo would be considered "obese" by our BMI standards. Angelina Jolie is estimated to be underweight, even know the critics seem to think she's hot.

It's so bad that in Europe there is talk of finally banning extremely underweight models. The fashion industry won't self-regulate. Skeleton look is in. I personally had a local a friend who died from complications of a lifetime of anorexia/bulimia; she was all of about 40, dying in her sleep last winter. She was a wonderful person doing amazing scientific work for wildlife preservation, and her death affected many many people.

Glamour magazine's recently chose to print a photo of a woman who looked like a real woman. Sadly people still insisted on calling her "fat" and "plus sized", but it was a step in the right direction:
http://www.glamour.com/sex-love-life/20 ... rentPage=1
Which stirred up a lot of controversy:
http://www.politicsdaily.com/2009/08/21 ... ve-curves/


Why is it so hard for us to accept ourselves the way we are? As the Glamour interview said:
"“When you focus on the body parts you love, your ‘flaws’ fade away.” "

[EceGled]

This is a wonderful post, calico. Thanks so much for sharing. I am not really focused right now, so I won't add anything to that for the moment.

I do want to direct you to an article about that Glamour image on Sociological Contexts: http://contexts.org/socimages/2009/08/2 ... e-like-it/

The sociologists don't think this is so much a step in the right direction as a very rare exception to the rule

[helmut]

When I lost weight, people suddenly seemed to say, hey, you're OK, you're looking well, fit, whatever. They had time for me. I was acceptable. It was only then I realised the default of mild contempt those people had probably viewed me with previously. Same me. Different waist size. Completely different attitude. I've pleaded this before to Gym Queens in general - it's a statement of the department of the bleedin' obvious. Every time you write off someone as a fat knacker, they get written off as a fat knacker. So don't.

Interesting Gelert- I have been slowly losing weight for the past few years- not necessarily intentionally but a lot to do with being more active. funny how people who haven't seen you for a couple of years go 'oh you're looking GREAT! we should totally catch up sometime!'. and people presume that the fact that you look great is due to weight loss - 'have you lost weight? you look great!' then there are people, usually older relatives, who say things such as 'you're too skinny! what are you eating? you've lost too much weight.' there's a lot of stigma attached to weight, whether you are overweight, underweight or "normal" (whatever that is.)

i remember a few weeks after i moved out of home a girl at work complimented me on my weight loss which at the time was mostly due to living off 37c cans of baked beans and a recent bout of severe gastro. and I told her so...

[emm7]

calico thankyou for your post which makes some excellent points. Yes your bone structure and genetics mean that height=weight charts are misleading anyway as they are for people of average height and medium bone size!
I applaud wholeheartedly your attitude to your body , build, food and exercise.

I enjoyed the picture of the "normal sized" woman very much, I thought she looked attractive and it is very refreshing to see this picture as I have never seen such a picture printed in a magazine before.
Saying that, is she average sized, as she actually looks rather slim to me, just not anorexic?
Most models in magazines do look underweight and plenty look clinically anorexic.

[Big Good Wolf]

A similar subject came up on another forum and I ended up offending people by asking questions.
If you want to imagine I'm trying to be offensive, go ahead, but really I'm just asking about something that puzzles me.

These magazines that promote the image of skinny women, aren't they the same ones that have full page adverts for New Zealand Lamb and articles about how children need cows milk for healthy bones and teeth ?

If you're vegan, you've already seen through that part, why do you fall for the image part ? As a bloke, I find it easy enough to avoid watching football and drinking beer with the lads.

Whenever I go in H&B there's two piles of magazines on the counter, a Women's Health one and a Men's Health one. They've given up trying to sell me a copy when I go in because they know I will just laugh at the model on the front cover.
Why do women look at a picture of a skinny model who has spent three hours in make up and then had her picture photoshopped as well and think they have to look like that while I can look at a similar picture of a male model and say " I did a 12 hour mountain bike race last month and none of the guys who beat me looked like that. I'm fitter than him".

[moggy]

Womens images of themselves can be affected by others, not just magazines. I have a friend whose boyfriend kept going on about how fat she was. I think he thought he was being funny, but she says it just made her feel lousy.

moggy wrote:

Vets have a similar problem trying to get owners to realise that there is no escape from the fact that too much food, and not enough exercise, causes their animals to be fat.

My cats must not have gotten that information, because I have thin ones and heavy ones, even know they all have the same access to food (free choice). Two cats I have at the moment are rather chubby, even when kept away from the wet food. The chubby ones don't live at the food dish. The most active is my youngest who is coincidentally one of big ones. How do we explain it?

My dogs also get free choice food, and my vet is happy with their consistently good weight. Why is it some can eat the same food as others and not gain?

This just sums up that sadly everybodies metabolic rate etc is different- 2 people who eat the same and exercise the same, may vary tremendously in weight.

I hated being larger when I was young (genuinely big boned), but now in comparison to others my age, I'm one of the least overweight (and thats even with having put weight on since I did my back in)

[Gelert]

Equally, I genuinely do not see the connection of fat as a feminist issue as anything other than utter nonsense.

More men may be obese than women, but way more women than men have eating disorders.

To be honest, I view obesity as a symptom of another eating disorder. It is not the food, it is the - frankly, toxic - relationship with the food itself. We've become a bit more enlightened these days with some of the recognized eating disorders and how to treat them, but back in the day, force-feeding was largely the way forward in the way that dieting is pushed now for obesity. I think we need to move beyond that to achieve change in a meaningful, sophisticated and sensitive way.

I don't wish to stigmatize those on either end of the bathroom scales by labelling for its own sake, but really speaking defining the beginning and end of obesity as the accumulation of fatty tissue, or even in response to a dysfunctional balance between calorie intake/output; they're just the symptom and mechanism of it. The acutal problem is far more subtle. Just as with the onslaught of size-zero models, peer pressure, enablers in the media media, psychological issues and potentially genetic issues and a whole host of other reasons are all to blame for "conventional" eating disorder, it is surprising how many of the same play a role in obesity. The symmetry is surprising.

As for those who are still doubting

Calories in > calories out = obesity

in its substance, please consider two things

Is the inverse possible, i.e.

Calories out > calories in = obesity

or even

Calories in = calories out = obesity

And please bear in mind this: No matter how slow or fast your metabolism is, if you are consuming more calories than you are expending, it does not change the end result. First Law of thermodynamics tells us energy cannot be created nor destroyed, only transferred. In this instance from food to energy for work or reserves via metabolism.

A slow metabolism thus does not invent calories out of thin air.

[EceGled]

If you're vegan, you've already seen through that part, why do you fall for the image part ?

Are you asking this question because you genuinely want to know, or are you asking it in disbelief? Acceptance is the first step, so if you want to help people accept themselves and avoid offense, the best approach is to accept them rather than expressing disbelief at who they are.

I view obesity as a symptom of another eating disorder. It is not the food, it is the - frankly, toxic - relationship with the food itself.

Obesity is not considered an eating disorder because it doesn't prevent you from leading an otherwise healthy (mental) life, in and of itself, although you have a good point because it can. I knew a pretty obese middle-aged man who said he'd "rather be fat and happy than skinny and hate myself." He also was actually pretty healthy according to medical examination. A pretty active man. There is a difference between an eating disorder and disordered eating... it's about the extent of the psychological damage. That is why I say I had bulimic eating patterns, but I would probably never have been diagnosed as bulimic as I think the symptoms have to last for at least three or maybe it's six months in a row (like many mental disorders)... for me it was more an on and off thing.

But yes, we should focus on the relationship to food. When 60% of a population *really wants* to lose weight but things just keep getting worse, you can't just blame individuals. You need a much more complex solution.

[patvirt]

I recognise there are whole range of reasons people can be overweight and would never criticise someone for have a medical reason for being overweight.
I just can't stand people who know that the food they eat is unhealthy and fattening and complain about being overweight.
I've heard loads of people say to me - 'I just can't eat vegetables. Can't stomach or put one in my mouth'.

Seriously HTFU! It's a fucken vegetable! All I eat is made of vegetables. They're not poisonous.
I know a guy that says he doesn't not at all eat vegetables. Everything he eats is meat/dairy/egg based. It's revolting.

Getting back on the topic. Do reiterate with xjimx and Rodolfo.

Governments in western countries are appalling when it comes to policy about food. The Australian government tried to get fast food ads banned during childrens television programming and I don't think that got off the ground. Everyone's got a stake in something and refuses to let it go.

[Big Good Wolf]

See what I mean ?
I try to take an interest and ask questions and straight away people go on the defensive.

It's not my problem. Carry on.

[thestoatyone]

I got ya wolfie.

Whenever I go in H&B there's two piles of magazines on the counter, a Women's Health one and a Men's Health one. They've given up trying to sell me a copy when I go in because they know I will just laugh at the model on the front cover.

I used to fall for that glamour meself, until I realised it wasn't doing my mental state any good...

[thestoatyone]

I got ya wolfie.

Whenever I go in H&B there's two piles of magazines on the counter, a Women's Health one and a Men's Health one. They've given up trying to sell me a copy when I go in because they know I will just laugh at the model on the front cover.

I used to fall for that glamour meself, until I realised it wasn't doing my mental state any good...

[The Duke]

Gelert,

I want to challange an assumption here.

The assumption is that all of the energy in the food ingested is actually used.

This is not the case is it? There is still a shed load of calorific content in the shit and piss that we produce. This has to be factored in to the equation surely?

I think the question I am asking here is:

Of all the chemical energy available in a portion of ingested food, how much is actually utilized by a human body?

What is the range of utilization?

Is it typically close to 100%?

Or is it much lower?